Fleet User Group Meeting
05.10.2011
General Information
• Questions where raised about the PASSCOM. A main line train on another region (on an older unit that we do not run on the Southeastern region) had a female passenger lock herself in the toilet before setting herself on fire. Concerned and distressed passengers used multiple PASSCOM’s to contact the driver to seek help and escape the burning carriage. The problem in this case was as each PASSCOM was pulled the driver lost communication with the previous PASSCOM point. We asked as a group could this happen on our units if this was to happen to one of us? I was assured that our units are newer with better PASSCOM’s. A driver can not loose communication with a passenger through the PASSCOM until such time the driver chooses to end the conversation regardless of the number of PASSCOM’s pulled. The first PASSCOM talks to the signaler first and the rest in order que behind it until the driver has spoken to each one.
375
• After a successful trial the entire fleet will be fitted with new BROT wipers and should fix issues currently seen. These are the same wipers used on the 395 fleet and have proven reliable and long lasting.
• During the last winter one of the problems causing the units to fail was the LIM’s tripping out because of thermal over currents. As part of the new software update that has been installed fleet wide the LIM’s will now be more “relaxed”. The theory is it will improve reliability and winter performance.
• From the first of November 8 series units will be fitted with anti icing tanks. This will be operated using the old speed set button and will lay on the conductor rail. This is part of a bigger project that Southeastern and Network Rail have been planning and actioning following the problems during last winter’s snowfall.
• The refresh of all units is continuing. This includes new digital CCTV to replace the old system offering improved picture quality and a longer recording time. Rumor in the crew rooms of the system having the ability to transmit in train images remotely is untrue and not based on fact. Images are stored on a hard drive and can only be downloaded when the manager is on the train.
• The issue of buckets and brooms at stations was raised due to concerns over safety and the question being asked, “are they needed?” It was agreed by the group they are needed and it was important that the buckets were kept full of water. The only H&S issue identified was the overhead power lines at Ashford so drivers will not find them on platforms 5&6.
• On the day of this meeting 19 toilets are known to be defective. Engineers asked staff to keep reporting them so they can be fixed.
• The fleet is currently running on average 41,000 miles per fault.
• I raised the issue of loud CSR’s and handed over a number of reports from one driver to the 375 engineer. He thought the problem had been resolved and was concerned that it had not. He said he would look again at the issue and find out why after the radio had been turned down it returned to its original setting. I shall raise this again at the next meeting.
• Drivers will have or will soon receive a brief regarding ice mode. Some units have been instructing drivers to use ice mode due to the cold weather on hot sunny days. Drivers are asked not to do this and report the fault.
• At the last meeting a Cab Environment Group was set up for main line and metro fleet users to identify faults and problems. They submitted their report at the meeting containing a long list of items needing action. The main three items asked for are:
1. Air Conditioning
2. Cleaning of cabs
3. Replacement seats for 3, 6, and 7 series
• It was agreed that giving the cabs a deep clean was the easiest of the three items and this was already being looked into. The air conditioning was raised at the beginning of the year but dismissed by the company as replacing all units would cost millions of pounds that the company does not have. Engineers are still working on other ways to improve performance and reduce noise. The third item of replacing all drivers seats in 3, 6, and 7 series units was discussed at length with Drivers Company Council leading the argument. The current seats are causing muscular and skeletal problems for drivers due to their poor design and positioning. The requested drivers chair are the Stella seats and are currently fitted to class 8 and 9 series units. Southern it was reported at the meeting had replaced all their units chairs with Stella chairs and the reps asked for this to happen on Southeastern. The estimated cost of replacing them was worked out to be £200,000. This we where told would have to be discussed at a higher level before a reply could be made. Management and engineers asked if they could go away with the report to examine it in more detail and give decisions at the next meeting.
• As part of the new software update drivers will now get a yellow fault for low sand. Should a driver see this on the MITRAX he or she must contact the signaler and report the fault. Control will log this and try to take the unit out of service as soon as possible. The fault only indicates the sand box is running low and not that it is empty. Fitters will be working to a 5-day refill. This means not one unit will go more than five days without having its sand topped up. Each time a unit is filled up it is logged and the unit goes to the bottom of the list. As more units are filled this unit will rise to the top of the list to be refilled again. Units that have the yellow fault reported automatically go to the top of the list. Five days is the maximum length of time a unit will go unchecked. Contractors are being posted at key locations (at a large expense) to ensure this happens and happens correctly. From the 1st October onwards engineering give a 100% guarantee all units will have sand and take full responsibility for this. Any units that may for any reason fall outside the 5-day refill plan will be removed from service until they are correctly refilled. This is a big undertaking from engineering at a considerable cost. Any problems or questions drivers may have please contact me on 07595302427 or andybull.aslef@yahoo.co.uk and I’ll be pleased to help.
395
• Like on the 375 fleet drivers may see a yellow fault on the TMS indicating the sand boxes are low. Drivers must report this to the signaler so the unit can be refilled as soon as is possible. The 5-day plan also applies and any unit falling outside of this will be withdrawn from service.
• The fleet is currently running 70,000 miles per fault, which is down from 90,000 due to more units being used and not sitting spare in the yard. The main two faults Hitachi are dealing with at present are monitor failures and traction problems.
• Since the last meeting I have been emailing Andy Harding (395 Fleet Engineering Manager) and Darryl Evans (Acting Route Operations Manager) with concerns and problems drivers have raised. The issues I raised are:
1. Driver’s chair
2. TVM display
3. Cab damage
4. PIS (light flashing in the cab and driver over riding OBM)
Below I have copied in the emails with actions taken to resolve the problems:
To Andy Harding
At the last FUG meeting I raised a couple of items but as I was the only high-speed person able to attend I was instructed to email you both.
A number of drivers have contacted me with concerns about the driver’s chair. The first point was of the chair operation (moving chair back and forth). I spoke to Andy about this (I include a picture of the preferred handle etc.) a couple of weeks ago, would it be possible to have an update about this at the next FUG meeting? The second point was the damage being caused to the dash from the chair when a driver enters and leaves the chair. The left armrest is striking the desk and in some cabs deforming or making rough edges on the dash. Is there anything that can be done? Happy to speak more about it at the next FUG.
Drivers have complained to me about the PA button flashing when the OBM is using it when the automated PA is trying to. Some OBM's deliberately override the automated message adding to the problem. At night or when in the tunnel it can be a distraction and in general an irritation. Can the brightness be reduced in some way or the flashing stopped? Would it also be possible for the active cab to dominate over the other handsets? I have witnessed the OBM using the PA when I have needed to and I had to wait until he had finished. It is also a problem when I am talking to the signaler and I cannot hear him because the OBM is giving a long message to the public. Being able to over ride the OBM to stop him making a PA announcement so the driver can and being able to not hear the OBM in the cab would be very beneficial and make safety critical communications safer.
From Andy Harding in response
All of the driver’s seats apart from one unit (U15 DPT1) have been returned back to their original standard due to problem with the replacement slider mechanisms and Hitachi are looking into the design again. (No new variations will be fitted until Hitachi have demonstrated to me and to a selection of Drivers and DMS, that the new design is better than what it replaces.) What I would like to understand is if the original version sliders are no becoming defective? (Aged, etc.)
With respect to the damage occurring to the cab desk, Hitachi have been tasked a number of weeks ago with cleaning up the area that is being affected but I am still waiting for the examination to be put into place. (I will push the fact again today.)
OBM’s overriding automatic messages and the multitude of different ways the OBM’s divulge their messages would need to be directed at Darryl Evans for correction as there would appear to be no commonality from what I have observed. Unfortunately, changing the way the PA works will be an extremely costly affair but I would suggest sorting the OBM’s out first, as that would remove allot of the annoyances from the driver and will allow the PA system to work as it was designed, then we can look at the potential in dimming the light output if it still an issue (Brightness is an easy solution, control changes to the way the PA works will be very, very expensive.)
Just so you are aware, Hitachi will be replacing all of the incandescent bulbs in the TVM displays in the future with LED versions. This will remove the tendency for display to look dirty and the display looking burnt in areas. (The bulb filament causes a shadow to be cast onto the display and makes the display look aged and dirty, etc.) One unit will be picked and ‘Chain A’ in one end will be fully upgraded to LED’s for a service test. Then if successful, two units will be fully completed and used in service for a period and if there are no objections, the modification will be applied across the fleet.
Hitachi will over the next week, dress all of the damage CPBC side covers up and over the longer term, will re paint, etc. Hitachi have asked that driver’s should not get out of the driver’s seat on the left hand side by the waist bin.
After seeing another modified driver’s seat slider on Monday night in U2, I have asked Hitachi to declare what is fitted as, as what I have seen between two units does not match up to what I was told was fitted by Hitachi, etc.
Hitachi are going to put a list together of all the unit that have the modified sliders and I have asked for them to be removed and replaced as soon as possible with the original equipment, which is alleged to be with Hitachi within 10 days time.
With respect to the CPBC side covers, Hitachi have dressed the covers and are looking into coating them at a later date. (Because of where they are fitted, they will always get damaged.) I would suggest that if any driver finds sharp covers again that they should raise a defect report.
To Darryl Evans regarding PIS
As you now when the PA system activates and an automated message is played the PA button in the cab lights up and the message can be heard (quietly thanks to an update from Andy and David) by the driver. If the OBM interrupts or already has the PA active to make their own announcement the PA button flashes in the cab until the OBM puts the handset down. This is found to be a distraction by most drivers especially in tunnels and at night. London tunnel 1 for me causes the most concern due to the possible restrictive aspects and change of signaling system. The vast majority of OBM's are good and make their announcements correctly. Some OBM's however talk over the automated message at length and often over ride the automated PA without making any announcements of their own. The driver is unable to over ride the OBM once he/she has activated the PA and so stop the flashing. This is also an issue when the signaller contacts the driver, as the driver cannot stop the OBM announcement to hear the signaller clearly. Currently the CSR (particularly area 92) is not high quality and often has interference and can be quiet.
If the OBM's can be instructed not to over ride the automated PA announcements and to make finale announcements before the train slows to leave London Tunnel 1 (I suggest only if the train is running at a high speed and after entering the tunnel from Stratford) this would help relieve the problem. I am sure the OBM's are unaware the PA flashes or the distraction long announcements can be. Ideally the activated cab would be dominant over all handsets on the train so that the driver can over ride anyone using them but as Andy explains below this would be costly.
Reply from Andy Harding
Don’t forget that the ‘PA’ button has already been reduced in brightness as a modification once before and if its brightness is reduced again it might not be visible in daylight.
Reply from Chris Brown (Senior Onboard Manager)
I have just sent out a group email to all OBM’s in relation to this and for them to be mindful of PA use and the possible distractions this can cause our Drivers.
At the meeting I thanked Andy Harding, David Ling, and anyone else involved for their help and their quick response to fixing the problems.
• I requested that the driver’s chairs should be cleaned as some of them are becoming smelly which has been reported to me as sweaty staff sitting in them.
• I was assured that the fault causing the trains to groan was being worked on and they hope to resolve this soon.
• I have had a number of people mostly OBM’s complaining about squeaky body panels in the carriage and cab. Engineering ask all staff to report as accurately as possible what is squeaking and where it is located and they will try to fix it.
• Some units wipers do not work when switched on or move a little then return to their starting position. Engineering requested drivers report every cab so they can be identified and any modification needed can be actioned.
• The issue of buckets and brooms at stations was raised due to concerns over safety and the question being asked, “are they needed?” It was agreed at the meeting with the 395 engineers that drivers would not use them due to:
1. The window location
2. The window shape and size (H&S issue leaning over to reach middle)
3. The damage the broom would cause to the coating covering the glass
4. Overhead cables at Ashford platforms 5&6
395 Faults
Horns
• Since the recent modification to the horns many drivers have had problems with the horn being to quit and taking several seconds to sound. Hitachi are aware of the problem, can we have an update on their progress.
• Depot horn. Is it now connected? Was sounding main horn when pushed.
Wipers
• All units affected by smearing wiper blades with a couple of occasions of wipers coming loose, falling off, or having to be worked manually. Hitachi are aware, can we have an update on their progress. Will softer rubber wipers help stop the smearing?
Nose Cones
• Nose cones are not always shutting as they should. Is this on Hitachi’s list of things to do? Can a driver fix this fault? Is there a mod to rectify? What problems if any can be caused if the nose cone stays open?
Drivers asked to report if this happens
Couplers
• Unreliability of trains coupling together, one or both electric boxes not opening. Is this a known fault and can driver do anything to rectify?
PIS
• PIS and Intercom cutting out, only appears after train leaves station. Prevents internal communications when in service. How can this be rectified and is there a mod planned to stop it?
• Can a mod be fitted so a driver can over ride or turn of PIS messages and PA messages from the cab to stop distractions and hear signallers?
• Doors are being released at stations then PIS is asking to confirm location. This should not be happening as to many doors could be opened at short platforms. Is there a mod to fix this fault?
• Can PIS be put on silent mode like in 375’s? Silent button on TMS does not seem to do anything.
Heating/Air Conditioning
• Received constant complaints with heating and cooling driver cabs. Can be set to full heat and left to run but cold air comes from the vents. Setting it full cold you get warm air for a while, then cold air, then more warm air. This often comes from around the driver’s feet. Why is this happening and how can it be fixed? Carriage air conditioning always cold, why not cab?
Hunting
• Update needed on where we are in solving the hunting problem. Concern amongst drivers that units that were better after mods are becoming worse again. Unit 17 in particular is bad. Noticed some units hunt country side of London Tunnel 2 Dagenham to Thurrock. Are the new bushes working as expected?
Ride is well within safety index but does exceed safety index. Bushes faulty and are stopping yaw dampeners working correctly. Units 2 & 4 fixed.
Brake Faults
• Units having TMS brake faults 423 Brake cylinder pressure appearing and then going after a second or two, what are these? How should a driver deal with them, can they be fixed? They are a distraction in the cab. Unit 18 has been reported to me with this problem. Other faults could be appearing and then going without the driver being able to read it, TMS should display faults until driver acknowledges them.
• On April 25th unit 17 had brake failure on five of its six coaches. What was the cause for this to happen and is there anything a driver could do to fix it?
Feedback Forms
• Not in cabs recently, is this permanent or a temporally measure?
Jim Maxwell authorised
Windscreen Glare
• Drivers reporting glare on drivers window preventing them from being able to see out. How has the trial gone on unit 28? When can I see it?
Unit 16 coach 1 window has been replaced.
CSR
• CSR’s are constantly dropping out causing a distraction or drop out when a call is made. Why is this happening as they work fine in 375’s? Is there a mod coming? When a call is being made can CSR be modified to cut out any PIS messages in the cab as drivers cannot hear the signallers? What can a driver do if radio constantly drops out in service?
• Update on area 92. Has this now been fixed?
TVM
• Units increasingly using chain 2. Units often have partly lit or blurred display. 395 020 39206 has had TVM display drop out several times, once after being fixed. Unit 18 is another unit amongst others to have had this problem. Guidance for drivers of what to do and any news of mods to rectify problem needed. Please see picture below as an example.
Leaking Cab
• Water entering cabs through vent above cab door second man side. What is causing this, is there a mod to fix it, and is there any instructions a driver can follow to stop or prevent it? Drivers have been entering cabs with water over the floor where the wind appears to be blowing rain in around cab doors. Can this be fixed?
CCTV
• Drivers having difficulty seeing passengers on platforms due to the cameras being dirty both on the outside and inside of the glass cover. When it is wet and windy they are blurred and blocked with water. When there is bright sunshine they adjust but this means you can either see shaded areas or bright areas but not both. When it is very cold or snowing they ice over and some have condensation inside the glass cover. This causes dispatch issues and is not safe. Any mods to rectify?
Cab Rail/Handle Rail
• When entering and leaving cabs the pull rail is very dirty, when it rains is very slippery, and when very cold ices over. Jim Maxwell has told me gloves will be provided. How will these be given out? Are they one use gloves or do we keep them with us to wear several times?
Unit 15
• Brake problems below 5kph with unit running away before stopping. Has intermittent fault as mentioned in Brake Faults above. Car 3 39153 Brake cylinder pressure fault. Reported other units have had or have similar problems. Is there a mod to rectify?
Unit 3
• How does a driver log out TMS from maintenance mode? A driver activated cab to find yellow driver icon in the rear cab, went back to investigate and could not clear TMS. What should he have done?
Unit 25
• As driver put key on at St Pancras (coach 39251) all the doors closed but the red release lights on TSM display remained lit. Why did this happen? Is there a mod to stop it happening again?
Unit 4
• Drivers reported to me having to confirm all locations to get a door release despite PIS working. Why is this and how can the driver rectify the fault?
Unit 22
• On the 14th April when changing from AC to DC at Ebbsfleet higher level after pushing pan up/shoes down the AWS horn sounded and would not cancel. The driver had not stopped over a AWS magnet and had no indication as to why it happened. Why did this happen and was there anything the driver could have done?
375Faults
Drivers Seats
• Apart from a small few all the drivers seats need replacing. The padding has sunk away causing uncomfortable seating positions and putting pressure on the underside of drivers legs. The outer covers are worn often with holes and tears and very dirty. Very often the handles for adjusting the seating position are broken or missing. The chairs rock and swing as the bases are broken and badly worn. This is unacceptable and urgent action is required. What plans are in place to address these problems?
CSR
• Area change over’s are far too loud. Can we have an update on developments in changing this, number of units modified and numbers planned to be modified. This has been going on for a number of years now with very little progress. Can you explain the problems the company has faced and how they will be overcome?
• Drivers are concerned by the line quality when making and receiving calls. Can anything be done to improve signal strength and quality?
Air Conditioning
• What plans are in place to ensure the air conditioning works correctly throughout the summer period after large problems in previous years? Drivers are having to open windows in the heat as air conditioning not working causing them to miss AWS and vigilant warnings.
• 395 cab fans can be switched off without having to use a MITRAC 20 minute timer. Could having such a switch in a 375 cab help to stop HVAC problems and solve the cold air problem?
Loud Cab
• The cabs are becoming noisier to drive from poor door seals to the cab itself vibrating loudly. With a loud radio and a hot cab in the summer they are increasingly difficult to drive. What measures are in place to overcome this? Are there plans to refit the cabs? If not why not?
Fleet user group - Actions list
Date: 15th March 2010
Time: 13:30
Location: International House Ashford Floor 7
Attendees: David Ling (DL) Fleet Manager High Speed & Outstations (Chair)
Danny Brady (DB) Driver Manager Tonbridge
Steve Burgess (SB) Driver company council
Bill Williams (BW) Driver company council
Simon Hill (SH) Grove Park Driver and LDR
Simon Pearce (SP) Victoria Driver and LDR
Andy Barnes (AB) Tonbridge Driver
Steve Gurdler (SG) Faversham Driver and H&S Rep
Kelvin Pinnock (KP) Reliability Engineer
Mark Scholefield (MS) Reliability Engineer
Kevin Huntley (KY) Operations Standards Specialist
Apologies: Yorke Williams (YW) Operations Manager, Metro North
Phil Uzzell (PU) Operations Manager, Tonbridge
Copied to: Wayne Jenner Engineering Director
Richard Dean Head of Train Services
Mark Medley Professional Head of Operations
Jack Commandeur Head of Engineering Services
Mark Johnson Engineering Manager – Mainline
Brian Paulding Engineering Manager – Metro
Agenda:
Item 1 – Review of action points from last meeting
Item 2 – Engineering to brief on impending fleet changes
Item 3 – New issues from fleet users
Item 4 - AOB
Item Actions
Class 465
Networker Interlock lights The brightness of the interlock lights on the Networker Fleet of units is too bright resulting in drivers seeing their own reflection in the windscreen during hours of darkness. KP agreed to see what action can be taken to dim these lights.
15/3/10 KP advised that he has discussed the problem with E.A.O. who manufactures this type of equipment and they believe that they may have a suitable product. KP was requested to bring samples to the next FUG meeting.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
Class 465
Power Brake
Controllers It was reported that the Power Brake Controllers on class 465 units are losing the resistance to move between the power and brake notches. It was agreed that the technical team should review the maintenance specifications and report back on the maintenance that is undertaken
23/11/09 DL confirmed that the technical team have looked at recently reported controllers and have identified a problem that can result in the PBC having less resistance than required between the notches. They will be introducing a special check across the fleet to ensure all units are picked up.
18/01/10 KP reported that the overhaul spec is under review and that the depot is changing out those found defective following drivers reports.
15/3/10 KP agreed to check if these are being maintained as part of the C6 classified repair that has now started on this fleet.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
AWS Sunflowers It has been noted that the yellow sections of some sunflowers have started to fade resulting in the loss of functionality in the hours of prolonged darkness. DL believed that these items were replaced at a set frequency however he request KP to investigate as a matter of urgency.
18/01/10 KP advised that although he had identified a code of practice that recommends an overhaul frequency for AWS equipment this had not found its way into the ROSCO’s overhaul specifications. He has arranged for this to be discussed with the ROSCO,s and will keep the group updated on progress.
15/3/10 KP advised that he has identified an alternative LED device but he still needs to develop a way forward before the next meeting.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
Class 375
Cab Secure Radios – Loud Change Area Code
MS has identified a solution to reduce the loudness. Procedure to change the settings is now in place. Operational trial are required to obtain the correct level of setting required enabling us to still meet the group standard. KH to co-ordinate trail by the end of August. (SG and MS to be present).
It should be noted that introduction GSMR will resolve this issue.
16/2/09 - MS reported that a special check has been raised at Ramsgate depot to reduce the volume and this will be carried out when the units are on exam giving a completion date of June 2009. MS to give progress update at next meeting.
20/4/09 – MS reported that the special check has started however, the completion date has slipped to August. He was requested to give an update on progress at the next meeting.
08/06/09 MS provided note prior to meeting. Problems have been found with the tooling and procedure, which has now been updated. This task will now be raised as a campaign within EMS
17/07/09 MS reported that the campaign has started and will be completed by the end of the year.
28/09/09 No technical representation at meeting
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that this campaign should be completed by the end of the year and he will update at the meeting in January.
18/01/10 There has been troubles with implementation over the period since last meeting. Mainly as a result of the increase in defect induced workload, largely as a result of the extremely bad weather. This has impacted on the completion target. Expected comp March. The check is now continuing
Action: Mark Scholefield
Cup Holders
It was agreed that due to development work currently being undertaken on the Communications Audio Control Unit (CACU) to improve the current handset issues. The cup holder development will be put on hold and progressed further at a later date.
MS to provide approximate time scales for CACU development and GSMR first of class fitment.
Location options and costing to be tabled at the next meeting.
16/2/09 - MS reported that he has been sourcing a supply of cup holders that can be fitted and the initial price is £7.50 per item. He believes that this can be improved and will report back at the next meeting. PR stated that he felt that based on this cost this could be an easy win for all.
20/4/09 – MS reported that he has managed to reduce this cost to £5.32 per holder. He will now compile a short paper that can be presented for financial consideration.
08/06/09 DL briefed the group that paper hade been reviewed by the Engineering team and further development work is now required as it was felt that the current proposal is not robust.
17/08/09 MS reported that he has been unable to find an alternative product so far however he will continue to look. It was then debated if the plastic ones fitted to the 377 fleet are acceptable and it was reported that none have been found broken on these units. DL agreed to discuss this with the engineering team as fitting these would be the quick option.
28/09/09 DL confirmed that he has obtained the Engineering Directors approval to implement this modification and that MS will be driving this forward.
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that cup holders have been ordered and delivery is expected late December. A discussion took place in respect to the best location and the group agreed that Steve Gurdler should be invited to Ramsgate to agree the final position.
18/11/10 MS presented cup holder that have been delivered. SG will attend Ramsgate with MS to agree final position so that fleet fit can commence
18/01/2010 Meeting with Steve Gurdler arranged for discussions on positioning.
15/03/10 SG advised that he has agreed a location with MS. MS to advise group on progress with fitment at next meeting
Action: Mark Scholefield
Noisy air con
CL 375 & 376 The noise of the Air Con unit was raised as a concern.
Investigation show the noise is emanating from the HVAC due to the volume of air circulated. This volume of air is required to meet the Group standard for the cab occupied by two people. As one person only uses the Cab for 90% of the time, could we apply to deviate from the standard?
WP has confirmed that the unit is capable of being modified.
Kevin Huntley to lead the derivation from the group standard with Adam Page from Engineering.
16/2/09 Update No real progress has been made on this issue and further work is required.
08/06/09 KH was unable to update today as he was on leave.
17/08/09 KH agreed to follow this up by the next meeting
28/09/09 KH reported that he is still working on this issue to resolve
23/11/09 KH was unable to attend so no update available
18/11/10 KH not present however discussion took place where it was agreed that short term mitigation would be to shut system down for a short time for which a derogation will be required.
15/3/10 KH stated that he is happy with the proposal to either reduce the time the fan is in operation and or reduce its speed and he understood that this would make the system non compliant to the group standard. MS to investigate what can be done to achieve this solution.
Action: Mark Scholefield
375/376 Winter Performance The recent snow conditions had resulted in drivers reporting that the number of messages shown to the driver can distract them. DL requested that specific examples are compiled and sent to MS for his review.
15/3/10 After discussion, it was agreed that main problem was that every time the unit had a loss of power this flags up on Mitrac. The preferred option would be for only the first loss to be reported and then only serious defects that are about to close down the unit be flagged up. MS to consider if this is possible and practical.
Action Mark Scholefield
Class 376
375/6 Drivers seat
Conformation required that the 375 seat modification is being rolled out to the 376 fleet.
16/2/09 Update MS advised that we will have a stronger swivel fitted to all class 375 and 376 seats. Progress to be reported at the next meeting
20/4/09 – MS reported that he is still awaiting the final production version of this repair from Bombardier.
08/06/09 MS provided note prior to meeting. We are now awaiting the formal modification approval from BTS
17/08/09 MS reported that this is ongoing.
28/09/09 No Technical representative at meeting
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that the materials are due and Bombardier are proposing to use a man in a van to run around all sites to modify all units in a short time frame. The modification consist of provide an improved swivel reducing the amount of rock and roll.
18/01/10 MS advised that the modification has started and is due for completion by the 1st March. MS also agreed to find out the overhaul specification for the drivers seats following concerns raised by SB.
15/3/10 KP advised that so far 61 seats had been modified. MS to provide update at next meeting. DL also agreed to find out how Southern had funded the seat replacement programme on their fleet.
Action: Mark Scholefield/ Dave Ling
AOB / New items Raised
Class 465/0&1 Door Defects DL advised the group that there has been a noticeable increase in reported door defects that have been tested with No Fault Found. He requested that all Drivers are encouraged to provide as much information as possible if they experience defects in this area to assist the engineers with Fault Finding
Action: All Drivers
465155 KP briefed the group that this unit has been fitted with an illuminated Emergency Brake button as a trial and any feedback would be appreciated.
Action: All Drivers
375/376 second mans seat DB reported that some DI’s had stated that these seats could be improved if a thicker seat cushion could be fitted. DL agreed to look at this and report back.
Action: Dave Ling
Actions Closed at this meeting
Cab condition DL advised the group that engineering are developing a package of improvements to the driving cabs in response to the issues that had been found by a driver at Ashford. SG stated that he has noticed that a number of the class 465/9 units have internal seals missing from around the windscreen and requested that these be looked at during this work. DL agreed to raise this with the depots.
18/01/10 DL advised that the depots have been advised and that they were currently working on improving the cab conditions. Going forward it would be good to have some feedback at the next meeting on what the drivers have seen
15/3/10 DL briefed the group on the work that is being undertaken on the GEC units and that this work included bringing the cabs back to an acceptable condition.
Action: Closed
Cab cleanliness SG stated that he had been informed by cleaning staff at Faversham that they do not clean the cabs with antiseptic wipes. DL agreed to investigate the specification that should be used and then visit the location to ensure the specifications are being worked too.
18/01/10 DL advised that he planned to visit Faversham this week to look at cleaning etc.
15/03/10 DL advised that the cleaning at Faversham was not to the standard required however this is being addressed by Wettons and improvements in the overall cleaning standards of the fleets were being seen.
Action: Closed
Meeting dates 2010: Monday 10th May 2010 at 13:30
Monday 5th July 2010 at 13:30
Monday 30th August 2010 at 13:30
Monday 25th October 2010 at 13:30
Monday 20th December 2010 at 13:30
Fleet user group - Actions list
Date: 18th January 2010
Time: 13:30
Location: International House Ashford Floor 7
Attendees: David Ling (DL) Fleet Manager High Speed & Outstations (Chair)
Yorke Williams (YW) Operations Manager Metro North
Phil Uzzell (PU) Operations Manager Tonbridge
Steve Burges (SB) Driver company council
Perry Calvert (PC) Driver company council
Bill Williams (BW) Driver company council
Simon Hill (SH) Grove Park Driver and LDR
Simon Pearce (SP) Victoria Driver and LDR
Andy Barnes (AB) Tonbridge Driver
Steve Gurdler (SG) Faversham Driver and H&S Rep
Kelvin Pinnock (KP) Reliability Engineer
Mark Scholefield (MS) Reliability Engineer
Apologies: Kevin Huntley (KY) Operations standards specialist
Copied to: Wayne Jenner Engineering Director
Richard Dean Head of Train Services
Mark Medley Professional Head of Operations
Jack Commandeur Head of Engineering Services
Mark Johnson Engineering Manager – Mainline
Brian Paulding Engineering Manager – Metro
Agenda
Item 1 – Review of action points from last meeting
Item 2 – Engineering to brief on impending fleet changes
Item 3 – New issues from fleet users
Item 4 - AOB
Item Actions
Class 465
Networker Interlock lights The brightness of the interlock lights on the Networker Fleet of units is too bright resulting in drivers seeing their own reflection in the windscreen during hours of darkness. KP agreed to see what action can be taken to dim these lights.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
Class 465
Power Brake
Controllers It was reported that the Power Brake Controllers on class 465 units are losing the resistance to move between the power and brake notches. It was agreed that the technical team should review the maintenance specifications and report back on the maintenance that is undertaken
23/11/09 DL confirmed that the technical team have looked at recently reported controllers and have identified a problem that can result in the PBC having less resistance than required between the notches. They will be introducing a special check across the fleet to ensure all units are picked up.
18/01/10 KP reported that the overhaul spec is under review and that the depot is changing out those found defective following drivers reports.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
Cab condition DL advised the group that engineering are developing a package of improvements to the driving cabs in response to the issues that had been found by a driver at Ashford. SG stated that he has noticed that a number of the class 465/9 units have internal seals missing from around the windscreen and requested that these be looked at during this work. DL agreed to raise this with the depots.
18/01/10 DL advised that the depots have been advised and that they were currently working on improving the cab conditions. Going forward it would be good to have some feedback at the next meeting on what the drivers have seen
Action: All
AWS Sunflowers It has been noted that the yellow sections of some sunflowers have started to fade resulting in the loss of functionality in the hours of prolonged darkness. DL believed that these items were replaced at a set frequency however he request KP to investigate as a matter of urgency.
18/01/10 KP advised that although he had identified a code of practice that recommends an overhaul frequency for AWS equipment this had not found its way into the ROSCO’s overhaul specifications. He has arranged for this to be discussed with the ROSCO,s and will keep the group updated on progress.
Action: Kelvin Pinnock
Class 375
Cab Secure Radios – Loud Change Area Code
MS has identified a solution to reduce the loudness. Procedure to change the settings is now in place. Operational trial are required to obtain the correct level of setting required enabling us to still meet the group standard. KH to co-ordinate trail by the end of August. (SG and MS to be present).
It should be noted that introduction GSMR will resolve this issue.
16/2/09 - MS reported that a special check has been raised at Ramsgate depot to reduce the volume and this will be carried out when the units are on exam giving a completion date of June 2009. MS to give progress update at next meeting.
20/4/09 – MS reported that the special check has started however, the completion date has slipped to August. He was requested to give an update on progress at the next meeting.
08/06/09 MS provided note prior to meeting. Problems have been found with the tooling and procedure, which has now been updated. This task will now be raised as a campaign within EMS
17/07/09 MS reported that the campaign has started and will be completed by the end of the year.
28/09/09 No technical representation at meeting
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that this campaign should be completed by the end of the year and he will update at the meeting in January.
18/01/10 There has been troubles with implementation over the period since last meeting. Mainly as a result of the increase in defect induced workload, largely as a result of the extremely bad weather. This has impacted on the completion target. Expected comp March. The check is now continuing
Action: Mark Scholefield
Cup Holders It was agreed that due to development work currently being undertaken on the Communications Audio Control Unit (CACU) to improve the current handset issues. The cup holder development will be put on hold and progressed further at a later date.
MS to provide approximate time scales for CACU development and GSMR first of class fitment.
Location options and costing to be tabled at the next meeting.
16/2/09 - MS reported that he has been sourcing a supply of cup holders that can be fitted and the initial price is £7.50 per item. He believes that this can be improved and will report back at the next meeting. PR stated that he felt that based on this cost this could be an easy win for all.
20/4/09 – MS reported that he has managed to reduce this cost to £5.32 per holder. He will now compile a short paper that can be presented for financial consideration.
08/06/09 DL briefed the group that paper hade been reviewed by the Engineering team and further development work is now required as it was felt that the current proposal is not robust.
17/08/09 MS reported that he has been unable to find an alternative product so far however he will continue to look. It was then debated if the plastic ones fitted to the 377 fleet are acceptable and it was reported that none have been found broken on these units. DL agreed to discuss this with the engineering team as fitting these would be the quick option.
28/09/09 DL confirmed that he has obtained the Engineering Directors approval to implement this modification and that MS will be driving this forward.
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that cup holders have been ordered and delivery is expected late December. A discussion took place in respect to the best location and the group agreed that Steve Gurdler should be invited to Ramsgate to agree the final position.
18/11/10 MS presented cup holder that have been delivered. SG will attend Ramsgate with MS to agree final position so that fleet fit can commence
18/01/2010 Meeting with Steve Gurdler arranged for discussions on positioning.
Action: Mark Scholefield & Steve Gurdler
Noisy air con The noise of the Air Con unit was raised as a concern.
Investigation show the noise is emanating from the HVAC due to the volume of air circulated. This volume of air is required to meet the Group standard for the cab occupied by two people. As one person only uses the Cab for 90% of the time, could we apply to deviate from the standard?
WP has confirmed that the unit is capable of being modified.
Kevin Huntley to lead the derivation from the group standard with Adam Page from Engineering.
16/2/09 Update No real progress has been made on this issue and further work is required.
08/06/09 KH was unable to update today as he was on leave.
17/08/09 KH agreed to follow this up by the next meeting
28/09/09 KH reported that he is still working on this issue to resolve
23/11/09 KH was unable to attend so no update available
18/11/10 KH not present however discussion took place where it was agreed that short term mitigation would be to shut system down for a short time for which a derogation will be required.
Action: Kevin Huntley
Cab cleanliness SG stated that he had been informed by cleaning staff at Faversham that they do not clean the cabs with antiseptic wipes. DL agreed to investigate the specification that should be used and then visit the location to ensure the specifications are being worked too.
18/01/10 DL advised that he planned to visit Faversham this week to look at cleaning etc.
Action: Dave Ling
Class 376
375/6 Drivers seat
Conformation required that the 375 seat modification is being rolled out to the 376 fleet.
16/2/09 Update MS advised that we will have a stronger swivel fitted to all class 375 and 376 seats. Progress to be reported at the next meeting
20/4/09 – MS reported that he is still awaiting the final production version of this repair from Bombardier.
08/06/09 MS provided note prior to meeting. We are now awaiting the formal modification approval from BTS
17/08/09 MS reported that this is ongoing.
28/09/09 No Technical representative at meeting
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that the materials are due and Bombardier are proposing to use a man in a van to run around all sites to modify all units in a short time frame. The modification consist of provide an improved swivel reducing the amount of rock and roll.
18/01/10 MS advised that the modification has started and is due for completion by the 1st March. MS also agreed to find out the overhaul specification for the drivers seats following concerns raised by SB.
Action: Mark Scholefield
AOB / New items Raised
375/376 Winter Performance The recent snow conditions had resulted in drivers reporting that the number of messages shown to the driver can distract them. DL requested that specific examples are compiled and sent to MS for his review.
Action All Driver Reps
Actions Closed at this meeting
Driving Cabs A number of issues have been raised in the past in respect of the driving cabs and as such it was agreed that DL should discuss these with Colin Clifton and develop a clear plan on the next steps before the next meeting. The current list includes
1. DSD Pedal position on all units including 375 and 376.
2. Fitness for purpose on 2nd Man seats on GEC Networkers and the seating position following the installation of the fire extinguishers.
3. Brightness of interlock lights on Networkers
29/9/09 DL confirmed that he has discussed this with Colin Clifton who was considering the best way forward.
23/11/09 DL advised that Colin has requested information on the cab designs from the fleet owners (ROSCO,s) so that he can decide on the best way forward to address current issues.
18/01/10 DL updated the group that Colin had identified that the ROSCO,s do not hold the information that we were looking for. He then proposed that these actions should be closed out as we were not in a position where these can be resolved in the near future. After discussion, it was agreed that actions could be closed with the exception of the Brightness of the interlock lights, as these are a major issue. DL agreed to list these separately as a new action.
Action: Closed
Hitachi and class 376 braking It was reported that the brake blending appears poor as it has been noticed that as these units approach a stand the train appears to accelerate as braking transfers from regen to friction. DL agreed to discuss this with the tech team and look at the braking curves
23/11/09 DL advised the group that the brake blending had been tested during the testing phase of the Hitachi Traction modification and the equipment performed correctly. He presented a copy of the test report for information. After discussion, it was agreed that the drivers should be encouraged to report specific units when problems are found and the depot teams will then test these.
18/01/10 DL proposed that this action is closed as no reports have been received in the past 8 weeks.
Action: Closed
Noisy Cab
A Number of issues have been identified associated with noisy cabs in relation to the burst though door. Current issues are being progressed through the warranty path with Bombardier.
MS confirms that a work package has been derived to be undertaken on the cab conversion door which address the current issues.
Proposed project plan for rectification work to be submitted
16/2/09 Update MS reported that final specification has been agreed and fitment will start as soon as materials are delivered. He will provide an update on progress at the next meeting.
20/4/09 – MS reported that Bombardier will be undertaking this repair work and he expects them to complete 5 units per week. He will update the group on progress at the next meeting
08/06/09 MS provided note prior to meeting. 22 units have been modified so far.
17/08/09 MS reported that this work was continuing but he did not have the number completed to hand.
28/09/09 No Technical representative at meeting
23/11/09 MS provided a pre meeting note to advise that there were only 7 units remaining for the special check and that the weather door hold back mod had been completed across the 375 fleet.
18/01/10 MS advised that all units are now complete.
Action: Closed
Tinted Side Windows It has been noted that the class 377 units have tinted side windows. The drivers would like these on class 375 units, as it was felt that they would reduce glare and help to keep the cabs cool. Kevin Huntley to review.
28/09/09 KH reported that he contacted Southern for feedback on their experience, which has been positive. He will establish the reasons why it was fitted and inform the group at the next meeting.
23/11/09 KH was unable to attend so no update available.
PC expressed his frustration that this action has taken far too long to resolve.
18/01.10 DL advised that he had found out that the tinted side windows had been installed to prevent glare on the on board driver dispatch monitors and as such it is not required for our units.
Action: closed
Door open alarm PR asked if it would be possible to install a door open alarm that operates if a driver tries to take power before gaining traction interlock as this may help to eliminate rollbacks. MS and KP to undertake initial review
28/09/09 No Technical representative at meeting
23/11/09 KP reported that he has not had time to look into this request. DL requested that this is looked into before the next meeting in January.
18/01/10 KP advised that although technically possible it would be a complicated and costly modification that can not be justified at this time.
Action: Closed
Meeting dates 2010: Monday 15th March 2010 @ 13:30
Monday 10th May 2010 @ 13:30
Monday 5th July 2010 @ 13:30
Monday 30th August 2010 @ 13:30
Monday 25th October 2010 @ 13:30
Monday 20th December 2010 @ 13:30
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